Leaving well – Transitioning from a job to a business – with Naomi Hattaway

[00:00:00] Amel Derragui: The time is now episode 312.

[00:00:04] Naomi Hattaway: I think the biggest thing that I would like the listener to walk away with is that leaving well is something that is entirely in your ability to decide and your ability to choose. Even with outside circumstances and environmental things, we still have the opportunity to decide and to choose.

[00:00:21] Amel Derragui: Hello, my dear shakers and movers. Welcome to the Time is now the podcast show designed to take action and stay on top of your game to make a bigger impact with your business while creating more freedom and purpose in your life. This is your host, Amel Derragui. As your business and marketing coach, I am here to help you get the clarity and the action plan.

[00:00:41] Amel Derragui: You need to position yourself as the go-to expert in your field and grow a business that is aligned with your needs. This is your time to create more growth, alignment, and impact with your business. And today, speaking of making an impact, I wanna talk about making sure to [00:01:00] transition well through your journey of starting your business.

[00:01:05] Amel Derragui: And some of you who might be listening might be either thinking about starting a business while working in a certain position. Either leadership or having a traditional job. And you might be thinking, okay, is this the right time for me to leave? And if so, how? Or maybe you have left and are still reflecting on that transition going through to talk about this topic.

[00:01:26] Amel Derragui: I'm really excited to have Naomi Hattaway. Naomi, I am ready for this ride. I'm so ready. I am so happy to have you here. And I'm really thinking this is such a symbolic moment to have you on this podcast after having been on this journey together for the past eight years. We know each other since you have been on a complete different journey of your professional life and personal life, and we'll talk about that.

[00:01:54] Amel Derragui: And it was at the beginning of my journey of starting Tandem Nomads, and I remember you were one of the first people that I [00:02:00] have interviewed on this podcast show about a whole different story. Yet not that different. So I'm not gonna talk too much about that, but we'll come to that point. But I am going to introduce you to our listeners.

[00:02:12] Amel Derragui: So my dear listeners, just a few words about who is Naomi and why I brought her here for you. Naomi is the author of the book and host of the podcast show Leaving Wealth. Her expertise lies in guiding

organizations and individuals who are ready to do better when it comes to navigating workplace transitions.

[00:02:32] Amel Derragui: She's on a mission to help leaders leave a project, role or job with intention and purpose and when possible. Joy. Prior to launching her consulting business, she had herself left a leadership position at a renowned international NGO. She has also been involved in many civil society projects to improve government regulations and living conditions of the most disadvantaged people in her community.

[00:02:56] Amel Derragui: But this is not Naomi's first entrepreneurial and leadership [00:03:00] journey. Know her first experience living through transition after living across the US. Many years ago, her family moved to India where they lived. Three years and then they went to. Singapore, if I remember well. And then they moved back to the US and made their way through Florida.

[00:03:18] Amel Derragui: Virginia, Ohio, Nebraska. And they're now back to Florida and I think they're gonna move soon again. Somewhere I have the, so during those years in transition, she managed her own real estate agency, helping people find their dream home, and was also at the same time the founder of a movement called I Am A Triangle.

[00:03:40] Amel Derragui: That was. They are to support people who were living on the move and struggled to find sense of home. What a freaking journey, Natalie. It's so

[00:03:51] Naomi Hattaway: nuts to hear it in that kind of condensed version. It's like, oh my gosh, how old am I again?

[00:03:57] Amel Derragui: How many lives did you have?

[00:03:58] Naomi Hattaway: I know it feels that way, [00:04:00] doesn't it? Right, and it also feels wild that we've only known each other for eight years because it feels like it's been a lifetime.

[00:04:05] Amel Derragui: It's amazing and I just feel very grateful to actually have you part of my journey and to be able to invite you here. Again, it's such a joy to, and the reason I invited you was because many of my clients are actually going through transition. They, they, they have a corporate job or have a leadership position and are looking into transitioning to starting their business.

[00:04:28] Amel Derragui: Sometimes they actually start their business while working and others transition and then decide to work. To start their business.

So we're gonna talk about that. But there is something to what you do here, which has all to do with leaving well, which also in other ways I see it as transitioning. Well, but it's interesting when you look at your journey, 'cause I think that's also interesting to maybe start with that there is a red thread.

[00:04:55] Amel Derragui: Despite the fact that it's, you have such a diverse professional background [00:05:00] and living environment, et cetera. The red thread is your passion for leaving. Well, I remember you were talking about that even at the time we were working together through your movement. I am a triangle. So, um, could you tell us like what got you to this business now that you are, how long have you been launching this current business?

[00:05:20] Amel Derragui: About two years. Two years? Yeah. Yeah. So tell us how, how did you get to this?

[00:05:25] Naomi Hattaway: It's interesting for you to say that about the red thread of leaving and leaving. Well, because that is what has been always a part of my life, and I always wonder to myself, what came first, the penchant for leaving and the desire to always have something new or is it.

[00:05:42] Naomi Hattaway: The well part of it and wanting to be really grounded and, um, steady in the process of leaving. And I think everyone can agree that change is hard. Change sucks. Like no one loves change, but what we have control over is the transition part. And those are two very different things I've learned myself that I always would come, [00:06:00] uh, combine them.

[00:06:00] Naomi Hattaway: So it was change in transition, all in one messy mess of a muck. Um, and then I've realized over the last, um, decade or so that it's, they're very different. So. I, as you mentioned, uh, started a real estate business, which was my first real business. I was so excited about it. We had lived overseas, like you mentioned, and I couldn't work then.

[00:06:19] Naomi Hattaway: So I did a lot of beautiful volunteering. But when I started to, uh, begin the real estate journey, I realized there are so many people that treat real estate as an industry, of course. But what I was bringing to it was process of finding home where you can thrive. And so I ended up with families who were relocating from overseas or relocating from different major cities.

[00:06:39] Naomi Hattaway: So I think what I've realized is through the real estate work, I, I began to understand more in depth what each of us need to thrive, which is being in control of the way that we leave. So I fast forward from that. I worked in several nonprofits and one of the things that I learned at the

last nonprofit, um, before I I launched this business [00:07:00] was that I had a huge misalignment in my values.

[00:07:03] Naomi Hattaway: With the organization I was working with, um, on paper in the public. Even in our mission statement, I very much aligned with the work that we were to be doing, but in practice and in reality, there was a huge chasm. And so I decided to leave. And I, I say that I left out loud. Um, and when I say that, I mean that I.

[00:07:23] Naomi Hattaway: Made no bones about the reason that I was leaving. I shared with a couple of the board members the reason that I was leaving and made it very clear to the executive director why, uh, you know, a lot of times when we leave a place, it's very common to have some nice, um, message that's crafted about how they're chasing, um, new dreams or they're.

[00:07:43] Naomi Hattaway: Looking at opportunities to shift their impact in the world when oftentimes we leave because there is that misalignment. So after I, I did that and left, I had people contacting me to ask if I could help them. And so it, the business kind of began, um, holistically, uh, based on the [00:08:00] need and based on people contacting me to, to help them leave their roles as well.

[00:08:03] Amel Derragui: Yeah. And you know, I've been listening to your podcast and I love the story that you were talking about how you left. So you actually were very intentional. On top of leaving out loud, like you said, you actually have taken some mindful and intentional steps. Could you share some of those that you've done that led people to come to you and say, Hey, can you teach me how to do that?

[00:08:25] Naomi Hattaway: Absolutely. So it's very common in, in the US anyway to give a two week notice or sometimes four weeks depending on your tenure or your title. Um, I knew that I could do a little bit better than just the two week or a four week notice, and so I really dug into the work that I had been doing to understand where was my opportunity to.

[00:08:44] Naomi Hattaway: Proactively have knowledge transfer. Where could I kind of download from my brain and my work ethic and my leadership style to put into documentation to leave behind the work that I had accomplished? And of course, it's never accomplishment just on, on, you know, by [00:09:00] myself. It was always a team effort. But how could I document that?

[00:09:02] Naomi Hattaway: So that's the first thing I would recommend is that people really look at what knowledge transfer they can. Leave and in part to the organization or the business or corporation that they're leaving. Sometimes that is a simple documentation of a policy. This is how I do this. This is the point of contact.

[00:09:18] Naomi Hattaway: This is the next step you would need to take. Sometimes it's a project based knowledge transfer where you need to actually give the contact and potentially even introduce and build a relationship with the person that you've been. Working on the project with, with who might take it over. So that's one chunk of, of what I did.

[00:09:35] Naomi Hattaway: The other thing that I did was looked, this is kind of funny, but I looked at my draft email inbox folder. Um, the draft folder is often where projects. Kind of, uh, stayed while I thought about how I wanted to best, um, do them or whether I that, whether they actually had legs. And so that's a really fun kind of thing to do if you're thinking about leaving.

[00:09:56] Naomi Hattaway: If you know that you need to leave, look at what's in your drafts. That will give you an [00:10:00] indication of things that you either need to wrap up or sunset or things that you need to pass over to someone else. And then I think the last thing that I'll say is I did a really. Um, intentional look at my own values to make sure that I wasn't taking the problems of, that I was experiencing at the organization with me to make sure that I was still in check with my values.

[00:10:20] Naomi Hattaway: Mm-Hmm. So those are maybe three examples.

[00:10:22] Amel Derragui: It's amazing how many times we hear people talk about values. I. But I feel like it's been a little bit penalized. Is, is that an English word? It's French word, Ben. Uh, it, it is just normalized, let's say like we keep hearing about the importance of values, but I think that we starting to lose a little bit the connection to that and act actually essential to know what are our values, not just in terms of life, but in that specific context.

[00:10:50] Amel Derragui: Like what are the values that I'm using to. Choose my actions, yes, to choose my words, to choose how I actually [00:11:00] transition. And this is something that I feel like not enough people take the time to do it, although we hear about it so much.

[00:11:07] Naomi Hattaway: I a hundred percent agree with you. And I, I always use the example of kindness, which is one of my values, not niceness.

[00:11:13] Naomi Hattaway: 'cause those are two different things. Mm-Hmm. But as kindness is one of my values, then that can be the guiding way that I chose to leave. Mm-Hmm. And so. Am I being kind to my team? Am I being kind in the way that I schedule meetings? That's a really simple one that people can grasp as a listener. If you schedule meetings, if you're one, uh, if you have that deciding power, um, schedule for 40 minutes instead of an hour, then the important thing is to.

[00:11:37] Naomi Hattaway: To normalize and operationalize your value. So I would say verbally, I'm only scheduling this meeting for 40 minutes in an effort to be kind to your schedule so that you have time in between our meeting and the next. So I didn't just do the thing. I also named why, and I think that's a really beautiful way to imprint it for ourselves and also kind of leave a legacy.

[00:11:57] Naomi Hattaway: Um, I hope that when I have left a project [00:12:00] that people will, um, above all else remember that I was kind. And so that's a beautiful way to bring values into your everyday.

[00:12:06] Amel Derragui: Such a beautiful example I think of implementing. And um, those of you who are listening. I would definitely rewind and listen to that answer that Naomi has drafted to be kind, but still step into her full power.

[00:12:20] Amel Derragui: I think this is the key of leadership, knowing how to align our values, but still be able to communicate them in an effective way, but also in an aligned way with our values. I think this is really powerful. Just a little side note, before we dive into the specific cases of people who wanna start a business and transition from their jobs to their business.

[00:12:39] Amel Derragui: Actually, why did you choose leaving? Well, instead of starting, well,

[00:12:46] Naomi Hattaway: that's a good question, and I think we have a common friend, uh, Jerry Jones who Mm-Hmm. During the expat space of my life, had written a piece about leaving well, and it was very much connected to, um, living abroad or living outside of your passport [00:13:00] country.

[00:13:00] Naomi Hattaway: And I started to realize the co the connections and correlations between hospice care and leaving well. The mission field and living well, military service and leaving well, and there's just a through line through all of those moments where when something is ending, it's so important that we end it well so that the next thing can be better.

[00:13:20] Naomi Hattaway: And so I think there's plenty of things out there, resources and books and um, speakers that talk about how to start things well, but we don't yet have a good understanding of how to close something out, especially in the US I think there's other countries and other. Communities and cultures that do a much better job of celebrating and navigating endings.

[00:13:41] Naomi Hattaway: Um, but it was really important to focus on that because the way that we leave one thing often determines how we start the next.

[00:13:49] Amel Derragui: Amen to that. Definitely. So I would love to share with you some of the stages and cases that I have seen through my clients and discuss it with you and see how that resonates with you.

[00:13:58] Amel Derragui: Sure. Yeah. And your [00:14:00] expertise. So the first type of transitioning and leaving that I've seen is actually those who have the chance to prepare in advance. And actually it's interesting 'cause you do have a free resource for us. What to do according to how much time we have before we leave. And I think that actually matters, uh, like how much time we have to prepare Yes, for that transition.

[00:14:20] Amel Derragui: But the first case that I've seen is those who know way in advance that they want to do that. Some of them are still hesitant and others are actually in planning mode. And I've even had some clients who actually negotiated a sabbatical to transition to their business. Just in case they, that wouldn't work for them, that could come back to the job, which is ideal for some people.

[00:14:43] Amel Derragui: So that's one of the first thing, like having taking time way in advance to prepare the transition to not only leave well, but also to build the foundations of a business that is already put in place before we leave the job and take the risk of not having a. [00:15:00] Sustainable salary that comes in. The other situation I've seen is those who actually transition with the company, who start their business right after leaving the job, but they don't completely leave because the first client is the company.

[00:15:14] Amel Derragui: Hmm. And this is an ideal situation that often recommend my clients to do when there's an alignment between what they do for the company and the business. And then the third one is those who quit very sum. Um, and uh, in that case, they either start from scratch or they wait a bit before they launch their business.

[00:15:37] Amel Derragui: And sometimes what happens here is also a little bit of fear, a little bit of identity crisis, that a lot of that happens when there's a

big gap between the job and starting a business. So you can see a huge variety of different situations that I've seen within my clients and I wonder. When you hear that, what are the thoughts that you have about those different [00:16:00] transitions and what needs to be different done differently according to those stages versus what common frame do you see?

[00:16:09] Naomi Hattaway: Yeah, I think it's interesting because at the core of all of it is a deep. Understanding of self and being able to be really true to yourself in knowing what it is that you need and what it is that you want. Um, sometimes those can be two different things. And so I, I always trust my gut and my intuition, and I, I recommend folks lean into that, um, even if it's uncomfortable because we know, our body knows, um, we know what we need.

[00:16:37] Naomi Hattaway: And so if you're at that beginning stage of trying to think, how do I do this? How could I possibly leave? How could I possibly start my own business? Uh, center with, with yourself and understand first, you know, what is it that you need and want. The second thing I would say is that oftentimes in corporations, nonprofits, et cetera, in the structure of the workplace, we often have something called stay, or I'm [00:17:00] sorry, we, we often have.

[00:17:01] Naomi Hattaway: Something called exit interviews. Mm-Hmm. Where when we are leaving something, the company wants to know really honestly, uh, if there's anything they should be aware of, if there's any risk to the company with you leaving. Um, it's often couched in the terms that they wanna know, uh, feedback from you, but it's really a risk mitigation for the company.

[00:17:19] Naomi Hattaway: And so what I recommend is the opposite, which is stay interviews. Hmm. So if you have more time, um, and you have a leisurely, uh, timeline ahead of you. Reach out to your manager or the person that you report to. You don't have to call it a stay interview, but it's a really good opportunity to say, I'd like to talk about my place here and what I've accomplished and maybe what I haven't been able to accomplish.

[00:17:42] Naomi Hattaway: It helps to set the stage for your manager without there being any risk of worry or. Um, action taken because the manager might feel worried. Um, it helps to just settle and ground that, you know, maybe this isn't what I want for the rest of my time here. It also, to your point, Amel sets up the possibility of [00:18:00] if I launch my own business, could the client, uh, my first client be the company?

[00:18:05] Naomi Hattaway: Um, so reaching out for that interview and, and taking the proactive, uh, space to talk to your manager, uh, is really, really a

good idea. Managers. Have so have a hard job. Mm-Hmm. And there's, there's not a lot of managers that are great at their jobs. And so one of the things that they, they don't tend to do well is check in with their staff or their employees to see how they're doing.

[00:18:25] Naomi Hattaway: So it's, it's kind of up to us as individuals, it sounds counterintuitive, but to be the ones that proactively reach out to the people that we report to, to have that conversation. Yeah. I think the other thing that's super important, and this might seem um, not very relevant, but really communicate over, communicate with the people who you live with.

[00:18:45] Naomi Hattaway: Um, whether that is young people, a partner, a spouse, whether you're a caretaker for parents, roommates, et cetera, letting them know what you're thinking about and what you're going through is so huge. Um, our energy affects others. And [00:19:00] so when you're starting to have that conversation, whether it's. A long timeline or whether it's gonna happen quick, make sure that you communicate with those that you live with.

[00:19:07] Naomi Hattaway: Um, especially young people, they know more than we think they know. Um, and it just goes a long way to have the people around you be kind of on the same page.

[00:19:15] Amel Derragui: I just wanna first emphasize something that you said that can sound natural and uh, but I'm not sure enough people do it proactively, which is taking the leadership of our exit or our stay by requesting for that interview, right.

[00:19:29] Amel Derragui: That stay interview or exit interview. And it doesn't happen that often, I think. And the cases where I've seen things happen well and where the transition happened well is when that was done. Any tips that you have about how to lead that interview? Whether we want to leave for sure or not, or we are still considering.

[00:19:48] Naomi Hattaway: Yes. So one of the things that you can do, especially if you don't have an already existing relationship with your manager or your, uh, direct report that. Would make that a natural ask [00:20:00] is just to say, could we have some time to review my job description? That is a better maybe, um, casual lead in. And what you can do with that is, say, when I was hired, the job description that I was excited about is this Exhibit A, if you will.

[00:20:15] Naomi Hattaway: And what I've noticed that I'm spending the most of my time doing currently. Oftentimes is completely different. And maybe as an example, you want to get back to the things on your job description that you

were originally hired for, that you haven't had time for. Or maybe you are asking your manager to explore things that weren't on the job description, but that you've noticed need to be done.

[00:20:38] Naomi Hattaway: Another really beautiful way to have that opening conversation is to maybe look at the job description or the tasks that you are, um, supposed to be accomplishing. Offer a partnership. So you might say, I've had, um, not a lot of time to do this thing that I know is very important to you. Could I work with so and so in the other department to wrap that up and start to finish it?

[00:20:58] Naomi Hattaway: And that's a really good opener [00:21:00] to hear from your manager where they're at. And then it also begins an opportunity to be able to speak more openly about future decisions.

[00:21:07] Amel Derragui: Yeah, and there's something I heard in what you said at the end is also having that interview to actually say, I want to leave well, and I wanna make sure that I don't leave any open files when I leave.

[00:21:19] Amel Derragui: Yes. Yes. Um, which I think is important to do, leaving a clean slate before we leave and not, and making sure that the person who takes over does not have to handle all the mess behind us.

[00:21:31] Naomi Hattaway: And I, and I think there's a reality that that won't always happen. I think that's a, a desired state. Um, sometimes, you know, clients that I've had have had those conversations with their manager and it didn't go well.

[00:21:42] Naomi Hattaway: The manager maybe was operating in scarcity mindset or had other things that were on their priority list. And so. The end came sooner than the, uh, employee wanted. Um, they had that vulnerable conversation and it didn't go in the way that they thought. I think that's okay. Um, it's [00:22:00] not comfortable, but I think it's okay.

[00:22:01] Naomi Hattaway: And so that then goes to, if you don't have as much time to prepare, what do you do? And I think we can only be responsible for so much. And so leaving things as neatly wrapped up and as documented as possible is not always going to be. The opportunity. And so just thinking about the prioritizations of what projects mean the most to you, what, uh, do you wanna attach to your legacy and focus just on those things?

[00:22:27] Naomi Hattaway: I think one of the things that I mostly work with clients on is how to let go of some of their expectations for themselves. r themselves.

comfortable with the way that they left.

[00:22:41] Amel Derragui: I love that. Yeah. Let's now talk more specifically of the case where we know for sure we want to leave and we specifically want to leave to start a business.

[00:22:50] Amel Derragui: I have seen, again, many different cases where there was a hundred percent support from the company saying, great, let's. Let's help you transition, and we can even work with you after [00:23:00] that as a freelancer or consultant. And other cases where it's the complete opposite. Either there is resistance, sometimes even blockage, where there's non-disclosure or non-compete closures where we can't even completely run the business properly or sometimes there's no regulations, but a case where we're just afraid while we work that or shortly after that.

[00:23:25] Amel Derragui: Our network professional network sees us as this in this new identity, but I wonder if there is no support or there is such hesitance, how would you lead that conversation with an employer To announce that we plan to start a business and making sure that we have them on board and support it. Yeah.

[00:23:45] Naomi Hattaway: I think that there are ways, uh, there's, there's a book called The First 90 Days by Michael Watkins.

[00:23:51] Naomi Hattaway: And I, I used to celebrate that as a really good, uh, read, but then I realized he didn't talk about the leaving part at all. Um, but in the first [00:24:00] 90 days he talks about having allyship and understanding who are, who are the closest people to you, and how can you support them so that in turn they can support you.

[00:24:09] Naomi Hattaway: Leaving if it's not going to be a good conversation or a good outcome, and having that conversation is really helpful. If you go back to that thought of who are your allies, who in your department or on your team, um, is a really big champion of you. Would it be? A question I always ask is, would it be helpful to talk with one of your allies first or along the way so that they can champion you?

[00:24:32] Naomi Hattaway: The other thing that's really helpful is to, again, go back to what the manager's, uh, list of priorities are. If you know that they want project A to be wrapped up, use that as your lead into the conversation and say, this is something I need to do for, insert the reason myself, my family, for the idea of starting this business.

[00:24:51] Naomi Hattaway: I know that Project A is important to you. So what I'm asking is that knowing that I am going to soon be leaving, that I have, let's say three more [00:25:00] months to be able to wrap up project A in a way that you'll be proud of. Is that something that that works for you? And so navigating what the manager needs, um, in that conversation can, can sometimes help set off the defensiveness that they might have in a reaction.

[00:25:13] Naomi Hattaway: Mm-Hmm. Um, and also then goes back to how can you leave? Well. Have the legacy that you want to leave with your name attached, um, in, in the work that you're doing and in the projects that you're helping to complete or get farther down the finish line.

[00:25:28] Amel Derragui: Yeah. I love that idea of also reverse engineering the whole thing about how can I help you Yes.

[00:25:33] Amel Derragui: Um, to so that my, my leaving does not cause any troubles or, or is the most smooth for the company as well.

[00:25:42] Naomi Hattaway: And I think the other thing, Amel that's really interesting is, you know, when we think about having. Choice and being able to decide for ourselves. Some of us are going to have to, and some of you listening to this will have to be the ones to say, I, I'm willing to take the risk [00:26:00] to normalize that people leave.

[00:26:02] Naomi Hattaway: I'm willing to, uh, based on whatever, um, supports I have at home or, you know, whatever supports you have outside of, of the workplace. If you're able to help normalize for the rest of us, that reality that people leave, it can help set off the normalization in inside the workplace for others in the future.

[00:26:22] Naomi Hattaway: Mm-Hmm. Um, and so that's one thing I would recommend too, if you have the comfort and the space and the safety to say those words to your manager, like it's a reality that people leave and so it's my time and so how can I best support, like you said, the organization in the meantime so that it doesn't disrupt if we think about leaving a home or a city.

[00:26:40] Naomi Hattaway: Um, there are people who stay. Often the stayers have a hard time because of our departure. And so thinking about, well, I don't think that we have a, a huge ownership or responsibility to the stayers inside of the workplace. There are relationships, um, that need to be navigated and managed. And that brings me to a really [00:27:00] important part of all of this, which is the communication.

[00:27:02] Naomi Hattaway: Often we don't have as individual employees, um, control over the way that our departure is communicated, but you can also ask your manager or the person that you report to. Can I write my own out of office message? Mm-Hmm. Um, that might seem very simple, but it can go a long way in, um, having that communication that's open and, and more transparent.

[00:27:22] Amel Derragui: I love that you talk about that. I think we could have a whole episode about that specific issue. Yes. Um, because I've seen so many cases of some companies wanting to actually hush the fact that the person's leaving pretend it's not gonna happen, and versus others who want to make it a big deal and really mark that transition and communicate in advance.

[00:27:42] Amel Derragui: Do you have any point of view on that?

[00:27:44] Naomi Hattaway: Well, I think that it, it really depends on, on the industry what the public, you know, some, some companies don't have a public facing. Um, reality, some titles and roles don't have a public facing or community facing, um, reality. I think for [00:28:00] people who do, it's a whole, that's a, that would be a whole nother episode.

[00:28:04] Naomi Hattaway: Mm-Hmm. Um, to navigate the community response and the public response. But if you don't have that much of a, a outward facing role, I think that it's. It's in. I would encourage folks to really lean in to being able to say what it is, say it as it is. Um, you know, I, I know that there's other moments when people are without jobs because of a layoff or, um, redundancies, and I.

[00:28:27] Naomi Hattaway: In those instances, there's always a, a pr statement that is put together on the behalf of the people who no longer have employment. And why can't we? Um, when it's more intentional and designed that we're leaving, why can't we have the same statement crafted? Right. I think there's, there's great possibility there.

[00:28:45] Naomi Hattaway: And, and it's gonna take. More of us to normalize that before we get to a point where it's more common.

[00:28:51] Amel Derragui: Yeah. In a nutshell, it's all about trying our best to be in control of the narrative of, uh, why and how we're leaving.

[00:28:58] Naomi Hattaway: Yes. But then I also [00:29:00] think, just as you said, that I. At the end of the day, it goes back to what was the reason for you to decide that it's time to leave?

[00:29:08] Naomi Hattaway: Going back to your values, how can you apply your top one or two values to that hopeful control of narrative? And for, for, you know, using my kindness as one, um, if I can't control the narrative. How can I be still kind to the manager? How can I still be kind to my seatmates or my desk mates even if I can't control the narrative?

[00:29:29] Naomi Hattaway: I think that's really important too.

[00:29:31] Amel Derragui: Talk about kindness, but also while being empowered and you say often kindness is not being nice, so I actually wonder how you differentiate that. Right? 'cause I know a lot of people want that too.

[00:29:42] Naomi Hattaway: Yeah. I think being nice for me is when I am not operating inside of my boundaries, and so being nice would put others' needs above mine.

[00:29:52] Naomi Hattaway: Being nice is not me standing in my own leadership and in my own power. I think that when I find myself [00:30:00] leaning towards being nice, it's to smooth something over or it's to get something over with quicker. Kindness for me is. Very two footed firm stance. Um, it is delivering a candid conversation with care and compassion.

[00:30:17] Naomi Hattaway: Um, but also clarity. Kindness for me in the workplace is also normalizing and stating what my boundaries are and being able to say, for example, when you schedule a meeting with me, I really prefer and request that you send an agenda at least 24 hours ahead of time. Otherwise, I won't be able to be as prepared for the meeting and I'll have to decline it.

[00:30:37] Naomi Hattaway: That's a kind way of saying that Nice. Would be probably not saying anything at all and taking the meeting, being ill prepared and not driving the mission forward or the work forward. So that might be one example.

[00:30:48] Amel Derragui: So I'm just gonna start summarizing a little bit of what I heard from your input and you let me know if there's anything you feel like is missing to help those transitioning from their jobs to [00:31:00] starting a business.

[00:31:00] Amel Derragui: I think the first thing for me was. First, as you said, checking in with our values, how to make sure that we are aligned with our values and the way we're leaving. The second I would say, is communicating, first of all with our superiors, being clear and aligning that communication with our values and making the ask.

[00:31:19] Amel Derragui: I think a lot of people actually fear making the ask. Sometimes if we fear a resistance, I would say making sure to make the ask also in a way that, how can that be the easiest way to say yes to from the perspective of, of. The, the managers. And the third one is maybe taking control of the, trying to cooperate on the narrative and what's being communicated once we leave of how, why, and, um, what is the message that being shared with other people about the context of you leaving the position.

[00:31:53] Amel Derragui: Would you agree with that summary and is there anything else that feels like is missing?

[00:31:58] Naomi Hattaway: I, I love that summary. I think [00:32:00] the thing that I would want to just, um, maybe leave the listener with is to know that there are also, I believe, archetypes of leaving, archetypes of transition. Um, I do have a really easy quiz.

[00:32:12] Naomi Hattaway: I, I feel that there are four archetypes and how you approach transition. Is going to be unique to you. There's not one perfect way to do it. Everything that we've talked about today, um, I think is great in theory, but being able to take one thing that you can apply is more important than trying to be the best transition person that you can be.

[00:32:32] Naomi Hattaway: Some might process transition more internally. Some might process transition more externally and loudly like I did. Um, there's no one right way. The other thing I think that's really important is find someone to support you through the transition. There's nothing, um, harder than trying to go through that change by yourself.

[00:32:51] Naomi Hattaway: Transition is what we do with change and having a support partner, whether it's someone like Amel or someone like me, um, a friend, a loved [00:33:00] one that can just know what you're going through and help bring you back to center when it gets hard.

[00:33:04] Amel Derragui: I love that. And I think this tip about making sure to surround ourself that our support system being at home, but also outside of work and at work is really key.

[00:33:14] Amel Derragui: And one of the areas where I feel is key among many is the whole identity transition. That also could be a whole. Podcast. I know. Um, but I've seen so many of my clients really struggling from being the manager, being the leader to suddenly having their own business and being outside of their community or their environment.

[00:33:33] Amel Derragui: And having now to go solo, um, is, is a big jump. Any tips about that?

[00:33:39] Naomi Hattaway: Yeah, I, I think, I mean, it sounds so simple and, and, uh, maybe a little bit robotic, but I really think it comes back to just staying really, really super grounded in why you're doing it. For me, with my current launch, I, I identify the most with wanting freedom.

[00:33:55] Naomi Hattaway: I want freedom to be able to make decisions about where I do my work, [00:34:00] literally where I want to have freedom in how I do my work. What I'm doing, we talked about this a little before, we recorded, being able to be expansive in the kind of work that we say yes to. That's also a huge part for me. And so maybe check in with yourself.

[00:34:16] Naomi Hattaway: Is it freedom? Is it stability? Is it. Alignment with the impact that you wanna see in the world. Um, write it on a sticky note. Make a playlist, um, with songs that remind you of the reason why you're doing this. Um, mm-Hmm. Check in with other people to remind you and check. You know, I, I think that it's so great to have an accountability partner, someone that can say, are you living into?

[00:34:38] Naomi Hattaway: Your desire for freedom today, Naomi. Um, and I can say, you know what, I'm not today, and then I can course correct. So, uh, there's also, you know, part of what you were saying when you introduced me was that I believe that we can leave well with intention and purpose and with joy, and that's where the joy comes in.

[00:34:54] Naomi Hattaway: Make it, make it fun, make it. Filled with ease. That playlist idea seems so [00:35:00] simple, but there's nothing better than on a hard day when it feels like you've made all the wrong decisions when you're trying to launch your own business and leave the stability of, of work, um, and a salary to put that playlist on and have that reminder of why you're doing it.

[00:35:13] Amel Derragui: I love this tip. It's so good. You actually have many, many great resources, so I would definitely put your context and all the information in the show notes of this episode. You also offer us a free guide to help prepare for the transition according to how much time we have left, and I will. Be sharing it in the show notes of this episode.

[00:35:31] Amel Derragui: So my dear listeners, if you're interested, make sure to uh, go to the time is now biz slash three 12 and you'll be able to find all the information there. I think you mentioned I love this idea of archetype as well. I

will ask you for the link to that as well. Naomi, would we be able to share that on the show notes?

[00:35:49] Naomi Hattaway: Yes, absolutely. And it's, it's really simple. Uh, it is just naomi hadaway.com/quiz.

[00:35:56] Amel Derragui: Excellent. I love that. Is there anything else you'd love to [00:36:00] add, um, or share before we say goodbye?

[00:36:05] Naomi Hattaway: I think the last thing that I would say to you as you listen to this episode is I. There is a reason that you desire to leave.

[00:36:16] Naomi Hattaway: There's a reason that you desire something more and something bigger and something different, and the more that we can normalize for ourselves internally, that leaving is normal and that leaving I. Happens. And as a reality, the more that we can do it with intention and purpose, um, you're not alone. Um, there are many people across the globe, um, navigating this as well.

[00:36:37] Naomi Hattaway: And I think the last thing to remember is just that change is what happens to us in transition is how we manage it.

[00:36:43] Amel Derragui: Amen to that. And, uh, if you could repeat the sentence and then complete the blank, the time is now.

[00:36:51] Naomi Hattaway: The time is now to take control of our workplace decisions and the way that we impact the world.

[00:36:58] Naomi Hattaway: The time is now to [00:37:00] realize that leaving is a reality and that we can decide how to do it.

[00:37:05] Amel Derragui: I love it. Thank you so, so much, Naomi, for sharing your great experience and insights with us. I really enjoyed catching up with you on this episode.

[00:37:13] Naomi Hattaway: Thank you so much for having me.

[00:37:14] Amel Derragui: My dear listeners, I hope you enjoyed this episode, especially if you're in transition or preparing for a transition.

[00:37:20] Amel Derragui: Make sure to find all the resources and information about Naomi on the time is now biz slash 312. I can't wait to hear from you and stay tuned for the next episode. Make sure in the meantime to turn your challenges into great opportunities to create more growth, alignment, and impact with your business.